Extensive footnotes ([info]slightlyfoxed) wrote,
@ 2007-05-31 10:31:00
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Trans stuff on Radio4 - massively misjudged?
Radio 4 'Hecklers' series is giving Julie Bindel space to harsh on the concept of 'sex change' surgery. Not without herself being harshed on by a panel of others including Stephan Whittle and Peter Tatchell.

Does anyone think this might be useful? I suppose it could present some articulate and well-informed people slapping the notion down. I'm genuinely torn.

On a negative note, to me it seems as though the BBC want to stir up controversy for an hour or so, without offending an interest group who might have the strength of numbers to boot them in the head. Also, possibly, to suggest that they're boldly presenting 'balance' and 'a spectrum of opinion' without acknowledging that the circulation of some 'opinions' can be injurious to real people.

I'm not sure what to do. I'd like to attend, or protest, but I don't want to sit through it. I would probably mock someone who anounced their intention to protest something they hadn't seen, or which even hadn't happened, but I've seen Bindel's opinions in print and don't particularly want to subject myself to them in person.

ETA: I've overcome my squeamishness and booked myself a place. Come join me in vague unease! There will be cake, and biscuits!
Also written to TransLondon to see if anything is being organised.

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[info]thornbushrosy
2007-05-31 09:54 am UTC (link)
I would be up for going, and open to opportunities to creatively disrupt, or walk out & get drunk elsewhere, as moved.

It would be amazing if the shallow 'balance' argument could be given a good kicking in public, for example.

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 10:03 am UTC (link)
Fantastic. Let us discuss.

Maybe some small flyers. Maybe a large poster. Maybe something less like a seminar presentation.

But I'd love to write a snappy flyer about the history of arguments against trans people having access to surgery.

1980s - Gender is innate! You can't change it by having surgery!
1990s - Gender is social, constructed and fluid! You can't change it by having surgery!

I feel a very short and accesible mini-opus coming on.

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[info]earwigmc
2007-06-05 02:22 pm UTC (link)
printed/painted/stuck on for the duration Tshirts, and other clothing is good imo for getting a message across... and something that's harder to confiscate without removing your wholeself from the prodeedings.

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[info]zenith
2007-05-31 09:54 am UTC (link)
The other thing I think they're doing by giving Bindel the slot and this title is presenting the consensus of opinion on "sex change" surgery as if it were accepted as fine and dandy - i.e. Bindel is CONTROVERSIALLY rocking the boat! Speaking her mind, possibly in the face of POLITICALLY CORRECTNESS!

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 09:59 am UTC (link)
Yeah. Controversial and brave edgy-by-being-predictable-and-conservative Bindel!

Although I'm going to be really pessimistic and say that using some wording other than 'sex change surgery' really hasn't filtered through, much. Although I imagine that the other speakers may have pointed out that it's a terrible phrase.

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[info]blahflowers
2007-05-31 02:21 pm UTC (link)
Do we get to call this 'The Guardian excuse' now?

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[info]janinazew
2007-05-31 10:21 am UTC (link)
I might attend this. I am sick of hearing bullshit opinions that relate only very vaguely to the subject at hand as expressed by the Bindel's of this world, I would like the opportunity to yell at her.

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 10:30 am UTC (link)
Bravo. I wonder if they allow actual heckling during the event? I can't think they could - it's only an hour long...

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[info]earwigmc
2007-06-05 02:11 pm UTC (link)
it is titled 'hecklers'...

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[info]rozk
2007-05-31 10:37 am UTC (link)
I guess I should go.

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 10:43 am UTC (link)
Don't feel blackmailed or compelled - I've done so little legwork, particularly compared to you, and I imagine it gets very wearing. However, it would be very nice to see you - crumpets will be made available wherever possible.

(I think I spotted you at the Alan Moore/Melinda Gebbie talk but after some mild yelling the crowd carried me away.)

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[info]parallelgirl
2007-05-31 11:10 am UTC (link)
From the lineup they've got, looks to me like Bindel will be leapt on and comprehensively smited. But that does leave the question of why bring the motion in the first place....I'm quite tempted to go, too, but fear I could only contribute my incoherent rage....

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 11:52 am UTC (link)
I share the feeling that I have nothing to offer the event itself but my tooth-chattering rage. And possibly in blocking someone more Bindel-leaning from getting a seat, but what will that do, really? Change the tone of the hum in the recorded audience?

I like the idea of flyering, if I can do something actually lovely and creative and informative. I'll also write to the Beeb - they don't air everything they record (as anyone who went to the queer comedy night recorded about eight years ago knows) and they might well think better of it.

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[info]angeoverhere
2007-05-31 12:16 pm UTC (link)
Change the tone of the hum in the recorded audience?

If that is audible, yes. Think about Question Time and its many radio equivalents. I'd have thought that's why there's an audience - to give some sense of who's 'won' the debate.

Do we know who/what else is being given an airing in the series? That might help give a feeling for what R4 is up to.

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 12:21 pm UTC (link)
Good point - I'll have a dig around and see if I can find out.

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[info]xxxlibris
2007-05-31 11:27 am UTC (link)
Would be there but for lack of time ATM (also similar fears to parallelgirl about only contributing incoherant rage) but do let me know how it goes.

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[info]thornbushrosy
2007-05-31 11:49 am UTC (link)
Have registered too.

I put myself down as 'Radio 4 listener' in the 'non-RSM members', 'other', category, to book.

Mmm, leaflets. Sounds good.

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 11:54 am UTC (link)
I put 'academic in the field of sexology'. Don't cackle, it disturbs the sound recording equipment.

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[info]gane5h
2007-05-31 12:04 pm UTC (link)
I'm also torn. Going along seems a bit too much like feeding the troll.

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 12:14 pm UTC (link)
It's tricky. I really don't know if I can sit through an argument-counter agrument thing: I can't think it'll add anything new to the discussion, and it does seem to imply that Bindel as a spokesperson, adn the whole motion, has some kind of legitimacy.

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(Anonymous)
2007-05-31 12:24 pm UTC (link)
Indeed - when what she's peddling is seriously old hat. I'm a little suspicious also of the fact that she's set herself up against four big trans politics hitters (well, three and Peter Tatchell). That seems predicated to showcase Bindel as the plucky underdog (plain-)speaking Common Sense in the face of serried ranks of Teh Warriors Of PC.

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[info]gane5h
2007-05-31 12:25 pm UTC (link)
(Sorry, that was me again there.)

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 12:42 pm UTC (link)
I don't know how she's being presented - I've seen a write-up of a previous show in which four leading Muslim commentators and scholars were set up against someone who (by their own admission) had a 'limited understanding of Islam' but was arguing that it was incompatible with liberty:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/asim_siddiqui/2006/06/whose_agenda.html

That would imply that the lone speaker is more of a patsy for the critics to unroll their theories over.
But more generally, the show's solo individual is variously billed as 'the advocate of a controversial thesis', or presenting 'Provocative ideas which challenge popular opinion'. Previous themes have included (if I recall correctly) 'Iraq's going to be fine as a federal state' and 'Aid doesn't help Africa actually'. Very varied as to whether these are controversial opinions, and if so, in what way (too progressive? too old-fashioned?).

And I don't think that there _is_ a popular consensus that gender confirmation surgery _isn't_ mutilation. I should think there would be pretty widespread agreement for that, if people were asked point blank, for a number of reasons (Bindel representing the post-structuralist lesbian contingent, which is a long way from the straightforward homophobic contingent, for example, or the fundamentalist faith-based objector).

So I'm not sure how Bindel's being presented at all.

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[info]7kim_moon
2007-05-31 08:56 pm UTC (link)
I'm beginning to see a kind of Rashomon quality here -- depending on who tells it, Bindel's the brave proponent of truth in the face of politically correct aggression, or she's the symbol of opposition brought in as bogeyman and foil to reassert and uphold the basic correctness of the trans cause, or she's the dangerous bad guy against whom support must be mobilised ...

(arched eyebrow)

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[info]blahflowers
2007-05-31 02:23 pm UTC (link)
I've booked my ticket, so I'll be going along too.

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 03:06 pm UTC (link)
Cool - see me for cake.

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[info]kerrickadrian
2007-05-31 04:56 pm UTC (link)
Wow. Braver than I am.

Thing I'd be wary about is that if Bindel gets thoroughly trounced by everyone there, to the audience at home it will look like she's the innocent victim whose ideas are being suppressed.

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[info]7kim_moon
2007-05-31 07:07 pm UTC (link)
There's a cash bar -- point in its favour. A good drink or three could be essential for maintaining equanimity in the face of Ms. Bindel's ... er, what's the word, exactly? :)

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-05-31 08:03 pm UTC (link)
I would never usually use cross-gendered language to put someone in a negative light. But I think the term here is 'load of old cock'.

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[info]barakta
2007-05-31 08:15 pm UTC (link)
Would it be cruel to go and ask for a palantypist or sign interpreter? I'm hardly a radio4 listener.

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[info]earwigmc
2007-06-05 02:15 pm UTC (link)
do it[0] *winky smile*

[0]if you've time and energy and inclination

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[info]earwigmc
2007-06-05 03:19 pm UTC (link)
i really don't like that this is happening. i've tried to persuade myself it's okay with the putting-across-both-sides-of-the-argument thoughts, but i really don't think it will do so in the most appropriate/best way... nor do i think that's really the point (tho i haven't figured what the point is)(freedom of speach? fair enough. but it's not as simple as that, cos they're deliberately giving airtime to what julie bindel has to say, so it's not just that they happen to be letting her speak. i'm sure she has other outlets)(seems more like stirring up controversy. if they really wanted to address the issue they could a) ask the trans community what our priorities are b) present stuff in a different and non-adversarial way.).

i initially read it as june 18th and briefly thought of going along... then thought better of it, in that it'd potentially wind me up piss me off, and be a waste of my time and energies. as it pans out, now reading it as july, i'm intending to away that day, so don't need to think about whether i'll go or not.

one thing i have contemplated is contacting radio 4 and asking them about why they are doing what they are doing, and making my feelings/objections to it known. i don't know yet whether i will do that/not.

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[info]slightlyfoxed
2007-06-05 03:44 pm UTC (link)
I sent an email to Radio 4 on the evening of this post, asking what the purpose/presentation of the debate is, and stating my objections to both the way it's being framed, and Julie Bindel as a key speaker. I'll post it here this evening - it's a bit lengthy. No response yet.

I think you're right in that it will just make me angry, but I have some spare time, energy and cheerfulness, and I haven't been useful in a while.
I'm putting together a flyer in the least offensive, most calmly assertive wording I can summon. What I really want from the BBC is an appropriate and reliable email for people to send comments - I thin publicising routes for complaint is one of my main aims.

And you're right that freedom of speech is a red herring in many ways - not everyone has a basic human right to head up an hour-long debate on a public service national radio channel.

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[info]earwigmc
2007-06-05 04:14 pm UTC (link)
*looks at contact details on sites* o, that is a complicated system - no direct email address for complaints - looks like i'll need to copy and paste it into about 3 different online forms in the hope it'll go where it needs to go! (when written!)

interested to see what you wrote, when you post it.

glad you have the time, energy and cheerfulness *smile*

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